Rolkur – The Dutch Reply – Joep Bartels

At Aachen in 2005,  in the heat of the great St Georg debate, I sought out Dr Joep Bartels, one of the prime movers and shakers around Dutch dressage, and a vigorous defender of the training methods used by Dutch star, Anky van Grunsven. As always, Joep was only too happy to agree to an interview…

 I understand that you have written recently that you feel the Dutch system of training has gone past the traditional German methods, and this is reason for continuing Dutch success in world dressage – can you define what you see as the key elements of the Dutch school of dressage training?

“I think the key word is innovation. That is my favourite word, and the whole discussion around the training methods, reminds me very much of the discussion that surrounded the introduction of the Freestyle to Music, many years ago – when we introduced the freestyle, there were many in the dressage world who said that it would be the end of dressage – and they were wrong.

I would not call it the Dutch system and I would not call it a system as long as there are no detailed descriptions and publications. Talking about the Dutch system people focus on deep riding, but deep riding is only part of a training method, including many classical elements. And the deep riding comes from a German, Olympic champion Alwin Schockemöhle, who introduced it in the early seventies.”

“In Holland, I am the project manager of the Dutch Equestrian Federation for a program for our equestrian federation called the Rabobank Talent program, and part of this is setting up a Trainer’s Platform, where we try to look at training methods, looking to the innovative aspects in the scientific world – and also to developments in other sports. Thus we spend a lot of time looking at the methods of top trainers from volleyball, handball, cycling, and we look at the work of sports psychologists. At the beginning the Dutch trainers were very dubious of all this, because riders and trainers are conservative people.”

“However in our country we have slowly started to examine the topic – is there a possible improvement in dressage training techniques? And I think the answer is yes, improvement is possible. We’ve made the first few moves in that direction and I think the whole discussion we have now is essential to define what is useful innovation, what is acceptable in terms of the horse’s welfare, and what is only suited for a few genius talents who compete at the highest levels, techniques that would be completely dangerous to spread around outside the elite group. We haven’t come up with all the answers yet, but I think we are certainly on our way in Holland.”

“We have been running this program for four or five years now, and yes, I think we have been more successful than any other country in using new and successful techniques.”

If I want to know how the German system works, I can just go to the FN Handbook, and there see the six basics set out in the German training scale – is there any way the Dutch method changes or contradicts those principles?

“It is wonderful to talk about those things: takt, relaxation, connection and so on. That’s the end result, we all agree on that, no doubt, no problem – but the way to towards something like takt or rhythm, that has far more to do with modern learning principles, thinking about the nature of the horse as a herd animal – not comparing the horse with a human being, or working within a military tradition which has made more abuse of the horse than anything else. The classical tradition is wonderful but it is based on a tradition in which the horse was sometimes mis-used. Have a look at old pictures and films of classical riding and you will know what I mean.”

Anky at the Sydney Games – somehow the work with Bonfire seemed more relaxed than the work with Salinero….

“Yes, what we do is more looking to modern principles, and the tools are often based on ‘easy-learning methods’ for riders and horses. Much of our thinking is very close to the thinking of the Australian animal behaviourist, Andrew McLean, whose theory we have learned through another great Australian horseman who visited the Academy several times, Richard Weis. I think the methods of Anky and Sjef are totally in line with the methods of your guy, Andrew McLean. People should think more about his principles of operant conditioning – and understand more of the learning process of the horse.”

“Next to that we have the welfare principles, and today we have totally objective ways of measuring stress in a horse. We have the ‘heart rate beat-to-beat interval’ method which is used to tell if babies are in pain or not – if the interval never changes, then you know the baby is being stressed. That can be applied to horses.”

“The physiologist in our program is doing a lot of tests on horses and one day it will come out – it’s not official yet – that those well trained top horses are under far less stress than the ordinary recreational horse out in the field. The test results are currently screened through an scientific peers-project ”

Even with Bonfire the work could become a bit ‘hectic’ – here is Anky with Bonfire warming up for the Los Angeles World Cup final in  1995

But you don’t need to be a physiologist to pick stress in a horse – horsemen throughout the ages have known what to look for. You see a horse that sweats up, a horse that becomes irregular in its movements; you see a horse that is unwilling to stop in a calm manner, a horse that finds it hard to walk….

“Absolutely, but that still involves a lot of subjectivity. Several people can look at the same horse, one might say, look the horse is sweating he must be stressed – another will say, look to his eye, he is calm, the sweating must be due to this horse’s particular physiology. We are interested in putting together more objective information, and this comes more from outside our sport than from inside the sport. Furthermore, a lot of signs a horse gives us, might be misleading too. Therefore it is necessary to combine the knowledge of horsemen and scientists. Also, don’t forget that nowadays top horses are often horses that cannot be ridden by amateurs as they are sometimes so hot or difficult. When a top riders is able to handle such a horse you can see great things. Special top athletes can be difficult and have a lot of ego. ”

But doesn’t this get out of hand – as well as the five judges we are going to need a pathologist sitting there with his machine doing instant tests before the judges can give a score?

“I have learnt more wisdom about the horse as an animal from outsiders, like behaviourists, scientists and even ‘horse whisperers’ than judges or dressage trainers. I think in the horse world we are a very closed circle, and I don’t like closed circles. I am interested in what an outsider like a horse whisperer thinks about our sport, and what a physiologist thinks about horses and that extra information can help us break through our own blind spots. There are lots of blind spots in dressage…”

If this Dutch way is so nice and good for the horses, why does Sjef Janssen in particular go to such lengths to stop people publishing photos of Anky using these techniques?

“This has several reasons, but the most important one seems to me that he does not want journalists to print only pictures about deep riding. If pictures of the training are published he wants to have pictures of the horse in various frames. I would like to add that there are less nice moments in deep riding and in classical ‘high’ riding. At Aachen I saw at least 20 horses in the showjumping warm up arena, where I could go and make ugly photos of the way they were being worked. I saw Nadine Capellman this morning riding really well on her beautiful horse Elvis, and at one point she said to him, hey listen to me, then she rides on very nicely. If at that moment I had taken a photograph, I could have killed her. Every rider, no exception, you can take a bad moment, take it out of context and put it with an article to make bad publicity for that person.”

“In the beginning when this article came out in St Georg I thought Anky and Sjef were over-reacting, but when I look again to the wording that was used, they talk about using electricity on horses – imagine with a horse like Salinero if you tried to use electricity. They didn’t said that the allegation about electricity involved Salinero, but the suggestion was made, and everyone talks about it. When I was at Hickstead, riders came up to me and asked, is it true, are they using electricity. No they are not. Are they using the shoes (these are shoes attached to pulleys so that when one hoof is down, it forces the other into the air), no they are not!”

But they use the little rattling chains around the fetlock to get the movement higher in piaffe?

“That’s nothing, that’s not Sjef’s method. It’s true that maybe that he used it once or twice, but people should try and understand that the method is refinement; the method is to get the horse totally supple. Last year there was an article in Reiter Revue written by Professor René van Weeren about the ‘bridge’ about the muscles in the belly, and how that works with the neck and the back. The Germans say you break the neck by working the horse so deep, on the contrary you create more space for the nerve system by making the horse round – as long as you vary from long to short. To make things supple and strong you must vary from short to long, that is something that every trainer in gymnastics or athletics will know.”

But if this is so good, why if anyone – I’ve experienced this myself – publishes a picture of the horse going like this, then you get a very angry email from Mr Janssen?

“I think I am entitled to talk about Anky because I have looked behind the scenes in all sorts of sports, and over the past five years my wife and daughter have been training regularly with Sjef and Anky. I think she has a huge love of horses, she is really good to her horses, and if you are attacked as she has been, then your soul and your heart is touched, and maybe she over-reacts. I admit that, but this is like brutalising someone’s child. At the European Championships, I tried to stop them reacting to the St Georg article, but it was something that went so deep that she said, ‘either I react or I quit the sport, I cannot bear it – it goes too deep.’ And when I read the article, it is called ‘perverted dressage’, the wording is very insulting.”

But it also attacks Martin Schaudt, Isabell Werth and Nadine Capellmann…

“No it doesn’t, the article is mainly focused on Anky and Dutch dressage because the photographs and captions are about Anky and Sjef and Dutch riders. This was the also the reason that a German court made a verdict against the St Georg article.”

But those were the photos of this great new method in action?

“As I told you before deep riding is only an element of that method. Let’s look for example at gymnastics. Those top gymnasts have such wonderful bodies; they are so athletic they can do things that if you asked an un-trained 14-year-old child in school to do the same thing, they would tear their muscles and ruin their body. It would be cruel. The media should explain the training methods whereby Anky makes happy supple horses. But this is top sport, this is like those gymnastic exercises and we should explain to the young riders that it is not for every rider and every horse. The best in the world can do things that other riders cannot do.”

A point was made to me the other day by a really top rider, was that okay, in the beginning when we are training a young horse, we have to every now and then do something that is a bit crude, but as the horse is trained more, then there is less and less reason to make these cruder gestures and the aids become lighter and more refined – but even with Salinero, a horse that has won an Olympic Gold medal and a World Cup, you have to warm him in, in such an extreme way at every competition?

“For me the welfare of the horse is the only essential thing. I don’t believe in principles because they have been written down in 1846 or whenever. I believe that it is now 2005 and if Anky using the methods creates happy horses, strong horses, supple horses, there is nothing to be said against this method.”

But this happy horse won’t stop at X?

“It is a very hot horse… Anky likes to ride hot horses, in the beginning she gets her problems, like she had with Bonfire. I have seen Bonfire blowing up in one of his first tests. But Anky has the patience to wait and train. Not many riders would have created champions from hot horses like Bonfire and Salinero. They are genius and a little bit crazy. Especially hot horses need to be trained a little deeper, but also nicer and kinder, because the only way to relax them over the years is to give them total confidence in the rider”

He doesn’t want to go in the corners?

“He’s very good in the corners, maybe not in the first test, but it gets better and better during the competition. This is a very hot difficult horse, very talented, a freaky horse. Painted Black, the small tour horse she won with at Aachen, is not freaky, it’s a normal horse, it goes well, it goes supple. Don’t forget Anky has been successful with lots of horses over the years.”

“I think we should take the welfare of the horse as the only important consideration – that is the benchmark of anything we do. I also think there is a lot of hypocrisy in training. Trainers say, oh we’re so nice… but what they do is different. When we came into dressage, 25 years ago, and went to Hamburg Derby we saw some of the famous names in action, the tough old trainers, sometimes with a whip in both hands. When I came with them in the stable, I saw horses standing at the back of their stable – when I come into the stables with Anky, the horses come to her, they are friendly. I think there is a lot of hypocrisy. You have horses being trained by strong men and this is a tiny woman, weighing almost 60 kilos, ten times less than a horse. She very seldom uses a whip – okay she has hot horses that probably don’t need a whip but she needs a different method. It’s the whip of the strong man versus the deep outline from Anky. For me that deep outline is better than the whip and the strong guy.”

“It is also important that we shouldn’t copy this riding of Anky blindly. In our new Academy book, we talk a lot about the dangers of deep riding because those dangers are there – along with the dangers of bad high riding.”

“I think it is incredible in our sport that so few of the details of training are discussed, it is just blindly following the principles that were there 100 years ago. We’ve bred different horses, different systems, we have far more riders, more women in the sport – we should be more open to discussion in the sport, there should be less hypocrisy, so I think it is good that the discussion is opening up. The system of Anky and Sjef is not the system – I tell them, in ten years there will be another system and that trainer will win the Olympics, but as long as that trainer has the welfare of the horse in mind, and as long as we have objective information to check that the horse’s welfare is not endangered, that’s fine. There will be new methods, there must be new methods, and there will be a lot of discussion on the way. But not only blind criticism on a system that has created five Olympic champions, that’s no coincidence.”

“Nicole Uphoff was not an anti-horse welfare girl, compared to the strong men. Isabell Werth is much nicer to her horses than many of the macho trainers. In my opinion we now see more examples of lightness than we saw 20 years ago, we see better behaviour in the exercise arenas. We created the first exercise arena in the middle of the public, because we think it’s important to show the public what goes on behind the scenes. It’s good for the riders; it educates them, because they know the public is always around. Our place at the Academy is always public. I learnt this from the great Swiss Circus equestrian, Fredy Knie, his place was always open – at our Academy, it is always open, we have the hotel guests, from early in the morning to late at night, 30 weeks a year – that’s the way to do it. Let’s put everyone under critical examination, including the ones telling us about classical principles who come to the clinics with prepared horses and say how wonderful and nice it is – and at home, they train with the door closed. For a positive development you need a good open discussion, open doors and an open mind.”

Related article: Dressage Perverted – The Great Debate